Archer Spacemen Vs. Glencoe Re-issues

[Tinman]

Because there has been some debate with regard to Archer spacemen vs. Glencoe’s re-issues I set out on a fact finding mission after stumbling across the name of Glencoe’s President, Nick Argento. I took a shot in the dark using a dated email address and was quite surprised, if not unprepared, when he replied minutes later. Below are the excerpts of our emails over the course of several weeks during December 2008-January 2009.

Q: As a collector, I'm constantly seeing "vintage" Archer figures come up for auction. The color of some of these figures identifies them as Glencoe releases but others are harder to detect, being closer to vintage Archer colors. Could you tell me if there is anything specific I could look for to detect vintage from modern release? Having never purchased a Glencoe set, I was wondering if the PAT. PEND. markings are still present ? There has been some debate that the font style used in the PAT. PEND. marking denotes vintage from Glencoe?

A: Let me start with the molds. When I got the molds, the helmet and spacemen molds were completely stripped and the spacemen mold was actually blown apart at the top (too much pressure once - looked like and anti-tank weapon hit it). All the bushings and one back plate were stripped and so on. I had to replace all of that and just welded down the blown apart frame to save about $18K dollars for a new frame. I changed nothing in the molds other than make them run-able. The female mold had many bent and broken pins which had to be replaced.

Colors: The first batch of spacemen were run in metallic bronze with the women in a dark green and a few in light blue. The next batches had a stock metallic silver and then I made my own metallic colors by adding metallic silver to dark blue, dark green, and a few purple. The women were metallic silver and a weird blue I had from another job. I did not try to match any original ARCHER colors but the Archer colors vary so much that I am sure there are similarities.

Font Style: We did not change or modify anything on the mold to alter the figures in any way. The PAT. PEND. markings were, and are still present.

Q: Do you have several molds of each figure?

A: The male figure mold has seven figures only (including the robot), all unique. The female mold has nine figures, three of each pose.

Note. Archer released six male figures and the robot in the following poses:

- Holding hand-held device in the air

- Pointing rifle

- Throwing grenade

- Marching with rifle

- Pointing pistol

- Walking forward (no weapon)

- Robot with arms raised

Three female figures were released:

- Hands on hips

- Hands at side

- Holding baby

With the information provided by Nick, we now know that each Glencoe male figure, including the robot, was produced from a single, unique cavity while each female from any one of three possible cavities.

Q: It seems Glencoe's figures are more even in color, would you guess that heavily "marbled" plastic denotes Archer? How about the weight of the figures, did 1950’s plastic weigh more or less than modern plastics?

A: I am not sure, the problem with metallic color is the "metallic" comes from aluminum powder and tends to swirl sometimes giving a difference in color in the swirl areas. I am not sure about the weight of the plastic. In those days they used GP or General Plastic which is straight styrene. I used HIP or High Impact Plastic and sometimes added a bit of crystal (clear) styrene to give them some gloss.

Q: For historical reasons I was wondering if you could tell me how you came upon the Archer molds?

A: I found them at an auction at American Plastics in Florida. All were marked as having come from one of the scientific toy companies (name escapes me, think it began with an "O" ??). I was lucky, the guy who fixed the molds was a space toy nut and gave me a good price. The artist (who did the box art) was also an Archer fan and did the artwork for free. The first day I ran them, they all attended and it was like they had found a long lost friend.

Note. After hearing Nick’s explanation of where found the molds, I provided the following information found on pages 91 & 93 of “Blast Off”, thinking it may explain how they came to be in Florida:

"Genin (Robert Genin the founder of Archer) was determined to bring an educational element to his toys..." "In 1953 Archer Plastics developed it's first line of toys under the Child Guidance Brand. By 1956, Genin had turned Archer Plastics entire production over to Child Guidance, which was based in the Bronx."

"...Genin sold Child Guidance to a company called Dunhill, later Questor, in 1967. Genin worked for the buyers until approximately 1970 when Jardin-Matheson, with whom he'd done odd jobs in Hong Kong over the years, started a toy business in Florida. Genin signed on, moving to Bay Harbor Island in Miami in 1971."

A: YES! Questor was the name on the molds.

Q: The data sheet that came with your sets mentioned the molds came up for auction in 1991. What year(s) were the sets made by Glencoe and how long was the run?

A: The run was 10,000 over time, I printed 10,000 covers. I’ll have to look up when I first released them.

Q: Did you have the opportunity to purchase any of the other Archer spacemen related molds: futuristic cars, rocket, men from Mars figures, etc.?

A: I have one mold with two space cars. If I ever re-issue them (the spacemen), it may be with the cars.

Note. Through further correspondence, it was determined Nick obtained the molds for the 5-inch Archer futuristic tanker and sedan. As with the spaceman molds, the car mold is in need of repair to replace missing components and make it usable.

Q: Glencoe figure colors include (just want to verify with what was said previously):

+ Spacemen - metallic bronze, metallic silver, metallic dark blue, metallic dark green, & metallic purple.

+ Spacewoman - dark green, light blue, metallic silver, & weird blue.

A: Yes, some of the silver was a near black or what I call, metallic black so there were two shades of silver, one normal and one very dark, almost black.

Note. After discussing the normally seen Glencoe colors I forwarded an auction picture I had saved for reference which showed several figures molded in red and gold plastic.

A: No gold, if there is red, it’s a purply red but I can't remember using red, except for a few women. Just remembered, when we test shot the spacewomen mold, I ran it in the plastic in the machine which was hot pink. Several batches went to kids and my two buddies who are Archer nuts, so maybe some of those made it into the market.

Note. The following evening I received a second reply to the color question.

A: I know what that picture shows. A buddy of mine made up a box or two with weird colors. That gold, if that’s what it is, is not metallic. I tried to use a concentrate from another job but it wouldn't work with them.

Q: Do you think the person that fixed the molds would share his thoughts on the project?

A: Unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago. It’s becoming a lost art.

Q: I received a Glencoe set from ebay today and found I didn't know what I thought I did. Basically, I'm trying to use your figures as fingerprints. If I have a figure that doesn't match your exact PAT. PEND. stamp or other distinctive attributes, it must be vintage. Does that make sense?

A: Yes, that makes sense BUT there are probably some figures out there that were run with these molds in the late 1940s, early 1950s.

Closing remarks:

- I found conversing with Nick to be extremely helpful and want to express my appreciation for his time and effort. Thanks again Nick!

- As far as I know, only Archer and Glencoe produced these figures using the Archer molds. As pointed out in “Blast Off”, several companies used the Archer figures in their box sets but they were still produced by Archer.

- Because each Glencoe male figure (and robot) is produced from a single, unique mold, the PAT. PEND. markings, if applicable, provide a unique fingerprint and can be used to identify vintage from re-issue. Male figures that normally carry the PAT. PEND. marking are: holding device in the air, pointing rifle, throwing grenade, marching with rifle on shoulder, and the robot. Unfortunately, none of the female figures carry this marking, making them harder to discern vintage from re-issue.

After receiving a Glencoe set in the mail and holding the figures in my hand, it became quite obvious as to what is vintage and what is re-issue. As it turned out, I had no reissues hiding among my vintage collection. Figures I assumed were Glencoe because of their condition were simply vintage figures in great condition!

- Lastly, and this sounds silly, but after working closely with the figures during this project I’ve noticed the vintage figures give off a light chemical smell while Glencoe figures are odorless. If you can’t tell the difference by the markers identified below, try putting the figure in a plastic Ziploc for a short time and giving it a smell. Even my wife was able to tell the difference by smell with her eyes closed!

Variations in the PAT. PEND. marking of vintage Archer spacemen & robot figures appears to be endless. Small, bold lettering does not necessarily denote re-issues but the attributes of Glencoe's lettering can be used as a sort of fingerprint. Since Glencoe had produced all six spacemen and one robot from a single unique mold, all will look alike and have the same attributes. At the rear of the robot you’ll find the PAT. PEND. marking.

 

The bronze plastic robot pictured at the left and center is the re-issue with a green robot pictured to the right for comparison. I assumed the green robot was Glencoe’s because of it’s good condition but now known it to be vintage Archer. Also note the differences in the circled “C” just below the PAT. PEND. marking. The Glencoe figure has a smaller, bolder letter than the vintage. This small bold circled “C” is common to all Glencoe spacemen & robot figures.

 

At the reverse of the spaceman pointing the rifle you’ll find the PAT. PEND. marking on the gun stock. Again notice the bold circled “C” of the bronze colored Glencoe figure at the base of the neck. The picture of the vintage, purple metallic figure is provided for comparison.

 

At the reverse of the spaceman walking with rifle you’ll find the PAT. PEND. marking on the gun stock. Small bold lettering is not used on this Glencoe figure and is the exception. Notice the off- kilter “E” in PEND…part of a distinctive fingerprint!

 

At the reverse of the spaceman throwing a grenade you’ll find the PAT. PEND. marking. Notice the enlarged “D” in PEND. Excess flash (plastic) is also an attribute you don’t see on vintage Archer figures, at least not to this extent.

 

At the reverse and underside of the hand-held device you’ll find the PAT. PEND. marking. Again, notice the small, bold lettering. Another clear giveaway of the Glencoe figure is the size and shape of the spaceman’s head and left hand. A vintage, purple metallic example is provided for comparison.

 

The spaceman pointing the pistol does not normally have PAT. PEND. markings but the small, bold circled “C” at the base of the neck holds true. Another clear giveaway is the facial features with the figure at the far-right being the vintage example.

 

 

 

Although the walking spaceman doesn’t normally have a PAT. PEND. marking, examples can be found with the lettering at the base of the neck, on the helmet ring/collar. Normally seen in this area is the circled “C” with the Glencoe example at the top-right and vintage at the lower-right.

 

[Tinman]

What do you think, are the below figures vintage or Glencoe re-issues?

 

 

 

Their all vintage. The reverse of the spaceman pointing the rifle is a tough one, but if you compare the PAT PEND marking you'll noticed the period at the end of "PEND." is more to the center of the "D", vice it's placement on the Glencoe figure. The robot, which I had assumed was Glencoe because of it's condition is also vintage. Notice the circled "C" is above the PAT PEND marking vice below it as in the re-issued robot. Also, all of the figures have that chemical smell I mentioned.

[Andyman]

Nice detective work there, Bill. I am now certain of my three vintage Archer's origins. Note that the font styles are different, too. Vintage Archer use larger "sanserif" whilst Glencoe uses smaller "serif" fonts. I certainly hope Mr. Argento gets around to making those vehicles again.

[Tinman]

Thanks Andy, it was bugging me thinking I may have had re-issued figures hiding among my collection. Kind of like buying a "vintage" robot only to find it was actually a repro. I don't know my "sanserif" from my "serif" but the small, bold lettering doesn't make them Glencoe, their marching figure has the larger characters. I'm also convinced the mold repair effected the appearance of some of the figures as can be seen in some of the pics above.

Below is the set of figures I asked about containing some of the weird colors (pic borrowed from the internet):

 

[dratomic]

That was GREAT! Fascinating stuff. Great conversation -- thanks for sharing it with us!

[Fineas J. Whoopie]

Top notch work Bill!!!!!!

You have just wrote the book on this subject.

This thread is an instant classic and a valuable reference work.

Thanks so much!!

Now I'll be getting out my magnifying glass and my Archer spacemen to do a little authenticating.

[Andyman]

Let's see if I can explain serif versus sanserif. Serif on a font, or type style refers to extra lines added to the letter. For example the letter "T" can simply be two lines crossing each other which is considered sanserif (or no serif). The letter "T" with extra small lines added to the crossbar and base would be considered a serif font.

[Tinman]

Thanks guys, and thanks for the visual aids Andy. I was going to purchase a second Glencoe set in different colors to back up the research but wanted to spend my money on a more worthwhile collectable. I'm 99.999% sure all I came up with will hold true since we're dealing with single molds for the male figures and robot. After seeing the re-issues in bronze plastic I was convinced it would be hard to get them confused but some of the other colors may be a bit harder to discern. The female figures are a whole other ballgame and with some of the colors Glencoe released could easily be confused because the quality seems to be closer to Archer's.

[Fineas J. Whoopie]

So Bill, are there any other vintage space men that have been reproed?

[Blechroboter]

Superb topic Bill. Many thanks for an informative article. Read it several times. :blush:

[Tinman]

Thanks BR, I hope it wasn't a hard read and easily understood.

As far as I know Don, only the Ajax figures were reproduced and I'm not even sure I'd call it that. "Blast Off" implies the molds were used by everyone who wanted them. Unfortunately, none of them are marked in any way although I have noticed a difference in quality from one manufacturer to another.

[Morbius]

Brilliant work there Tinman! Wonderful history and reading about these guys.

As for the U.F.O. box above, I have always understood the kit of this ship to be from Lindberg model company c. 1953 or roundabouts. I'm assuming then that Glencoe purchased the molds at some point for this piece? Being a plastic modeller all my life and having had the re-issue kit from the early '70's I've never seen this box/company combined for the kit. Interesting. I still have the built-up from that time but it was before I began saving boxes.

[Blechroboter]

Tinman93 said:

Thanks BR, I hope it wasn't a hard read and easily understood.

It was easy to read for me. As usual I didn´t know some words. In this case it were exactly two words: bushings & welded.

Simple words if you know it but not often used in the Alphadrome English

[Hells Kitchen Phil]

I know I am responding to this thread 12 years later, but I have just started researching these Archer spacemen. I had a few of them in silver and bronze that stayed with me since my childhood in the 1950s in Hells Kitchen NYC. They were the first toy I can remember. I kept them in my "toy box" (3 feet x 1.5 ft wooden box)  in the corner of the living room. Everything I owned as a kid had to be kept in there.  I had no "room" per se, I slept in the living room in a castro convertable. Don't feel sorry for me, we had a bathroom in the 3 room apartment unlike most of my friends who lived in railroad apartments on 10th Ave. and had their bathroom in the hall shared with the neighbors. 

 

Anyway 70 years later I have started to fill in all the missing colors and pieces from those days. I'm up to date reading everything you all have wrote. I have bought a box of the Glencoe 1991 reproductions so I could see first hand the copyright marks and the Pat. Pend. marks that Tinman talks about. You all have done some great detective work , but I see one flaw in the proposal that a true Archer figure can be determined by these marks. Follow along with me. 

 

If Argento is remembering correctly in what he tells Tinman, then we CAN state that any figure without the Glencoe (c) and Pat. Pend. marks must be Archer. But, HAVING those markings means the figures could be either Glencoe OR Archer, since the molds were first used by Archer, before Argento/Glencoe found and used them. So again the only way to be sure a piece is Archer is to avoid those markings, but the presence of those markings means Archer or Glencoe. 

 

Determination by color is also an issue since Archer produced these over several years (at least 1952 - 1956) and there is no record showing that the plastic color composition stayed the same over that time. 

 

ALSO the statement on Sarif script vs San Serif needs to be modified. Since Archer made all the original molds they obviously used both scripts (maybe molds from diff years ??) but Glencoe only used the 1 mold (so we are told) so they only used the fancier SanSerif. 

 

Would love to discuss this further with Tinman or anyone else who is collecting these. 

 

In the attached pic Archers are on top row and Glencoe are on the bottom. I can get into the differences in the markings that I have found with anyone who is interested. 

[Hells Kitchen Phil]

Forgot to hit the "noitify me of replies" button on above message so I have added another one. Please reply here for both so I can know to come read what you have written. 

Lets look at Grenade Man - The first pic is the bronze Glencoe figure showing the small (c) copyright and the single line pat. pend

 

 

Below we see a bronze color Archer with Pat. Pend. on two lines and upside down. The bronze colors are clearly not the same. It has the typical Archer large C (c) copyright mark (similar to the silver one shown below) 

 

Next a violet Grenade Man showing the (c) and pat pend . The (c) is the came as the Glencoe (c) and the pat. pend . is now right side up. 

 

Last a pic of a silver Grenade Man showing the typical large C Archer copyright and the upside down 2 line pat. pend. All of these could be Archer (again - since all the molds were made by Archer in the 1950s) but only the copper color single line pat pend is a Glencoe (came direct out of the box)